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Post by ConsumingFire on Jun 15, 2015 0:37:34 GMT -8
So I've been hooked on ES lore lately, particularly that of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. Now, the lore of the Elder Scrolls in general draws plenty of material from global mythology. However, the lore surrounding the gods of Morrowind draws heavily from Hindu myth. VivecVivec would seem like an obvious example, and to me personally he was. Vivec is, together with Almalexia and Sotha Sil, a member of ALMSIVI, the Tribunal which ruled Morrowind from 1E 700 to 3E 427. Vivec is a god of duality, as is evidenced by his half-Chimer, half-Dunmer appearance. Where Almalexia and Sotha Sil are female and male, respectively, Vivec is heavily implied to be a hermaphrodite, thus explaining his androgynous appearance. This draws parallels to Ardhanarishvara, a composite of the Hindu gods Shiva and Parvati. Now, this is where the interesting stuff begins, as Vivec is known to have achieved a higher level of in-universe existence called CHIM (pronounced "kim"). According to the 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 12, Vivec learned of it through the Daedric Prince Molag Bal. CHIM is known as the secret syllable of royalty, and while it is quite difficult to describe, it is at its most basic level one of two routes a character learning that the world in which they exist is not real can take (the other being zero-summing, but that's for another day), and much of what is known about CHIM comes from out of game sources (namely, Michael Kirkbride) but is discussed extensively in both the Mythic Dawn Commentaries and Vivec's 36 Lessons while being hinted at in other works. This state gives those who achieve it the ability to affect the world itself in profound ways. Only two characters in the entire series are known to have achieved CHIM: the aforementioned Vivec and the other being Talos. It's even speculated by some fans that Lorkhan's creation of Mundus was the first ever attempt of achieving it, albeit he failed to do so... possibly on purpose. The ES universe is a universe of duality. Order and Chaos, Aedra and Daedra, Anu and Padomay. These are just a few examples. However, the biggest of all has to do with CHIM itself. I honestly never knew of a parallel to it until I read an interesting page explaining the nature of Dagoth Ur's godhood. Yes, it is inextricably connected to the Heart of Lorkhan... but at the same time it is so much more... it is a mysterious and nameless inversion of CHIM, and can be read about at the very article I found here. When a character achieves CHIM, they learn that they are one with everything. When a character does what Dagoth Ur did, they come to believe that everything is simply part of them. The article I linked implies that Dagoth Ur could possibly return to the Aurbis someday if he were to discover the means to do so. Lastly, the existence of CHIM could hint that the entire ES universe is nothing more than a dream world, perhaps the product of some primordial sleeping god. That, or the characters are doing some very strange things to the Fourth Wall. Thoughts? I could be only half-right or even totally wrong on this, which is entirely possible...
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Post by Gabrielman on Jun 18, 2015 18:19:54 GMT -8
While I plan on responding in depth, I did want to mention one thing that had crossed my mind before, concerning Dagoth Ur. It is my opinion that he is no longer Voryn Dagoth, but rather a victim of Lorkhan. What I mean is, I believe that while Nerevar was away with his advisers, seeking Azura's console on the heart, Lorkhan was able to communicate with the one guarding the tools, Voryn Dagoth. He tempted him to experiment on the heart with the tools of Kagrenac, allowing Lorkhan to posses, or control, Dagoth as a means of once more gaining power, albeit limited.
This is, of course, speculation, but it makes sense to me.
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Post by ConsumingFire on Jun 18, 2015 21:39:41 GMT -8
While I plan on responding in depth, I did want to mention one thing that had crossed my mind before, concerning Dagoth Ur. It is my opinion that he is no longer Voryn Dagoth, but rather a victim of Lorkhan. What I mean is, I believe that while Nerevar was away with his advisers, seeking Azura's console on the heart, Lorkhan was able to communicate with the one guarding the tools, Voryn Dagoth. He tempted him to experiment on the heart with the tools of Kagrenac, allowing Lorkhan to posses, or control, Dagoth as a means of once more gaining power, albeit limited. This is, of course, speculation, but it makes sense to me. That actually does make sense in explaining how Voryn Dagoth, Nerevar's right-hand man and best friend, would suddenly disobey orders and tinker with the very objects he was not only set to guard but earlier having demanded their complete destruction... it makes me think that some aspect of Lorkhan still existed beyond both the Heart and Masser/Secunda. I'm of the belief that Lorkhan may have previously been a Daedric Prince, though there is little to support that notion. I look forward to your reply.
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Post by Gabrielman on Jun 21, 2015 10:54:16 GMT -8
I'd also like to point out that, by destroying the heart and killing Dagoth, it's almost like setting him free. It's my firm belief that Dagoth was trapped inside his own body, and driven mad by the power of Lorkhan. It's almost... sad.
Another thought that came to my mind is that perhaps there is one more mortal that learned Chim. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in the next game (assuming there is one) we find out that the Nerevarine (who is immune to blight and age) has achieved Chim. Not as a means to become all powerful, but rather as a means to become strong enough to save the world. A bit of explanation is needed I feel.
It is believed that the heart of Lorkhan was a key anchor to the magic in the world of Nirn, and infact, it is believed that the Ehlnofey in the "The Annotated Anuad" are Lorkhan and Auriel from "The Monomyth". If this is true, then destroying the heart inevitably destroyed some of the power that kept Nirn magical and a viable place to live. I should mention that the heart wasn't really destroyed, so much as it was banished from the world, but for all intents and purposes it may as well have been. It is not known if one can bring it back, and stabilize Nirn, so for now, it's useless. This is where Chim comes in. Talos isn't on Nirn anymore, Vivec was supposedly carried away by Daedra (not that it matters as I am sure he could escape if he pleased). This leaves only two other powerful beings. The last Dragon Born, and the Nerevarine. If either one could achieve Chim, or better yet both, then there may be a way to stop the end of the world (see Alduin lore) and restore the magic power that was lost. As we see in later games, the magical power seems to be getting weaker, and certain spells lost altogether. I don't really see this as a game mechanic so much as a possible sign of the bonds of magic in the world weakening.
This is all, of course, speculation. However we can't deny that the world seems to be changing, and not for the better. Ancient powers are disappearing... even Daedric artifacts are losing power and getting weaker. They simply can't seem to hold onto the power they had before, even when a Daedra bestows it on someone. The world is like an acid, eroding power away.
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Post by ConsumingFire on Jun 21, 2015 20:54:04 GMT -8
I'd also like to point out that, by destroying the heart and killing Dagoth, it's almost like setting him free. It's my firm belief that Dagoth was trapped inside his own body, and driven mad by the power of Lorkhan. It's almost... sad. Another thought that came to my mind is that perhaps there is one more mortal that learned Chim. I wouldn't be surprised at all if in the next game (assuming there is one) we find out that the Nerevarine (who is immune to blight and age) has achieved Chim. Not as a means to become all powerful, but rather as a means to become strong enough to save the world. A bit of explanation is needed I feel. It is believed that the heart of Lorkhan was a key anchor to the magic in the world of Nirn, and infact, it is believed that the Ehlnofey in the "The Annotated Anuad" are Lorkhan and Auriel from "The Monomyth". If this is true, then destroying the heart inevitably destroyed some of the power that kept Nirn magical and a viable place to live. I should mention that the heart wasn't really destroyed, so much as it was banished from the world, but for all intents and purposes it may as well have been. It is not known if one can bring it back, and stabilize Nirn, so for now, it's useless. This is where Chim comes in. Talos isn't on Nirn anymore, Vivec was supposedly carried away by Daedra (not that it matters as I am sure he could escape if he pleased). This leaves only two other powerful beings. The last Dragon Born, and the Nerevarine. If either one could achieve Chim, or better yet both, then there may be a way to stop the end of the world (see Alduin lore) and restore the magic power that was lost. As we see in later games, the magical power seems to be getting weaker, and certain spells lost altogether. I don't really see this as a game mechanic so much as a possible sign of the bonds of magic in the world weakening. This is all, of course, speculation. However we can't deny that the world seems to be changing, and not for the better. Ancient powers are disappearing... even Daedric artifacts are losing power and getting weaker. They simply can't seem to hold onto the power they had before, even when a Daedra bestows it on someone. The world is like an acid, eroding power away. I think Dagoth Ur may have died actually... and that whatever remained of his memories and psyche were taken and twisted by Lorkhan to become a puppet of sorts, although the prospect of Dagoth being fully alive albeit corrupted seems equally plausible to me. Actually, now that I think of it those two scenarios are more or less the same. Either way it is sad, as you said. About Vivec... I find that both possible and hilarious in hindsight (36 Lessons), because having sex with the King of Rape was such a good idea... I believe that the Nerevarine and the Last Dragonborn have achieved CHIM or at least have the potential to simply by virtue of being the Player Character, though I'm not sure about the magicka bit... from what Magic from the Sky says, magicka flows to Nirn freely from Aetherius, so I don't see how it could be weakening, although even if it is I doubt that it could ever be halted completely as long as those rips between realms are still open. I agree though that the likes of magical objects such as Kagrenac's Tools and certain Daedric artifacts are significantly weakened as of 4E 201 for whatever reason (for the former, the Heart's absence seems a likely reason). Lorkhan is possibly an aspect of Sithis (who is of course the soul of Padomay), so the Ehlnofey being both him and Auriel in battle is likely as Auriel is the soul of Anu, his opposite. As for Alduin, his destruction of Nirn is foretold in the Elder Scrolls... so it's inevitable unless you have some serious hax abilities in order to nullify said prophecy (a la CHIM). Expect Vivec to pull it off for the lulz. If a future ES title does end up being made... I'd like to see the Maomer of Pyandonea, specifically their king, Orgnum who claims to be Satakal (the Yokudan equivalent of Anu/Padomay). I'd also like to have the Nerevarine back either as an NPC or just referenced somewhere as to what he's been up to on Akavir since he left... and possibly have Tosh Raka as a main villain (he want's to take over Tamriel after destroying the Tsaesci). Really enjoying this conversation so far!
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Post by Gabrielman on Jun 22, 2015 15:35:01 GMT -8
Interesting thoughts! With Dagoth Ur it's really hard to say what happened. We can speculate till the end of times, and we'd still never really know. I think that it is possible that he was dead, and his memories were used by Lorkhan, as you said, however it is also likely that he was dead, but his mind was used... basically turning his memories into the voice of the puppet, so to speak. I'd love to look more into the lore, and carefully read over what Vivec said about him to discover more. He took to calling him the Sharmat, which from what I can find, means he is the opposite of the Hortator, or so some believe. I think in the 36 Lessons of Vivec Sermon 15 makes it actually sound like Dagoth is in fact, in some way, Lorkhan. As for Vivec he may have wanted to go to Molag Bal's Oblivion realm to get himself a new spear.... >_> we all know how the first one came about.... with him... anything is possible! So far as magic weakening, I agree, it won't ever be halted completely, but I believe the earth bones serve a certain purpose, to anchor it, and make it more stable and usable. Perhaps that is what the Dwemer thought when they decided to make their own god. It is mentioned somewhere that by bending the earth bones, it would be possible to create a god. They may have believed that by harnessing that power, godhood could be obtained. However, even their temptation to me seems like an act of Lorkhan. IF they had succeeded in creating the Numidium, with Lorkhan's heart still inside, even with their tools, they may not have been able to control him. Of course they're all gone now, so we can't very well ask them... I hope to see more information on the Nerevarine and Dovahkiin in the future, but it would be fun to speculate our ideas on them. Indeed this discussion is fun
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Post by Gabrielman on Jul 1, 2015 23:58:38 GMT -8
While we're on the subject of Morrowind, it would be prudent of me to mention three big cities in Morrowind, specifically on Vvardenfell, that are the house seats. They are Ald' ruhn, Balmora, and Sadrith Mora. Each one means something different. Ald' ruhn means "Old (Ald) home (ruhn)". Balmora means "Stone (Bal) forest (mora)". Sadrith Mora means "Mushroom (Sadrith) forest (Mora)". I find these to be surprisingly accurate, but also reflective of the houses that reside there. Ald' ruhn is Redoran, who are most like Vivec and the temple. Not only does their name distinguish them from the other two towns (who are both "forests") but their actions as well set them apart. While the Telvanni and Hlaalu use slaves and are open about the fact that they don't care for others and only want to forward their own interests, the Redoran actively try to help others in the same way Vivec did.
I bring this to attention because Vivec is far different from Almalexia and Sotha Sil. In his actions from the time of stealing the Heart's power, to the time of the Nerevarine, he did more to achieve not only power, but the status of saint (a title he gives all three of them after the main quest) than the other two. So it makes sense in a way that he also achieved Chim, just like Tiber Septim. Perhaps it is actually a reward for all he did for the people of Morrowind. I'd also like to point out that he's the only one who resides on Vvardenfell, which literally translates "Strong shield (Vvarden) city (fell)"
Not sure why, but that just made me think... struck me as important, so I wanted to have it written down in case I forgot and needed it later....
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Post by ConsumingFire on Jul 12, 2015 20:04:34 GMT -8
While we're on the subject of Morrowind, it would be prudent of me to mention three big cities in Morrowind, specifically on Vvardenfell, that are the house seats. They are Ald' ruhn, Balmra, and Sadrith Mora. Each one means something different. Ald' ruhn means "Old (Ald) home (ruhn)". Balmora means "Stone (Bal) forest (mora)". Sadrith Mora means "Mushroom (Sadrith) forest (Mora)". I find these to be surprisingly accurate, but also reflective of the houses that reside there. Ald' ruhn is Redoran, who are most like Vivec and the temple. Not only does their name distinguish them from the other two towns (who are both "forests") but their actions as well set them apart. While the Telvanni and Hlaalu use slaves and are open about the fact that they don't care for others and only want to forward their own interests, the Redoran actively try to help others in the same way Vivec did. I bring this to attention because Vivec is far different from Almalexia and Sotha Sil. In his actions from the time of stealing the Heart's power, to the time of the Nerevarine, he did more to achieve not only power, but the status of saint (a title he gives all three of them after the main quest) than the other two. So it makes sense in a way that he also achieved Chim, just like Tiber Septim. Perhaps it is actually a reward for all he did for the people of Morrowind. I'd also like to point out that he's the only one who resides on Vvardenfell, which literally translates "Strong shield (Vvarden) city (fell)" Not sure why, but that just made me think... struck me as important, so I wanted to have it written down in case I forgot and needed it later.... Interesting that you should bring up that translation. Hermaeus Mora is often described as the "woodland man" in Atmoran myth, so that word may have been stemmed from the Dunmeri word for the second portion of his name or else it likely came into Atmoran usage through their early contact with the Elves. Also, this is just me, but "Mushroom Forest" as a town name seems rather uninspired on the Dunmers' part... Anyway, yes, Vivec did MUCH more in the way of earning the title of Saint among the Dunmer. Almalexia did too, at least early on before she and Sotha Sil lost Keening and Sunder. It's said that the Tribunal members also had very different reactions to losing their powers: Vivec accepted it as inevitable and at the same time welcomed it. Almalexia meanwhile went insane and Sotha Sil didn't even notice (or if he did, he didn't care).
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Post by ConsumingFire on Aug 10, 2015 13:03:29 GMT -8
A quick bit on Lorkhan and his possible connection to Talos. Talos is known as the hero-god of Mankind while Lorkhan is known as the Mortal's God. This makes me think that the two are connected and may actually be the same entity if Talos managed to "mantle" Lorkhan similar to how the Hero of Kvatch became the new Sheogorath. Also, if Talos really is Lorkhan reincarnated, this means that Lorkhan has finally broken free of that which he was previously bound to (Nirn). Lorkhan's body was bound, yes, and his physical remains can be seen in the forms of Masser, Secunda, and the Heart of Lorkhan. However Lorkhan's spirit was possibly free to inhabit reincarnated bodies, and so he has been reincarnated numerous times throughout Tamriel's history as the Shezarrines (a series of avatars sent out by Shor, the Nordic equivalent of Lorkhan). When asked about the Shezarrines, Michael Kirkbride presented the following list: 1. Wulfharth L 2. Hjalti O 3. Ysmir R 4. Talos K 5. Arctus H 6. Septim A N ^Wulfharth is another possible Shezarrine as well. He and Zurin Artcus would go on to together become the Underking, as Wulfharth's spirit possessed the returned Zurin's lich body, thus merging there identities into one. Wulfharth was also formerly the alter-ego of Tiber Septim. Ysmir as we know was a title for various heroes throughout Tamriel's history, such a Pelinal Whitestrake. I found a chart listing the apparent connections between Lorkhan, Sithis, and (strangely) Akatosh: tinyurl.com/opfgyq6This could explain the Thalmor's banning of Talos worship in Skyrim, too. If Talos actually is their hated enemy Lorkhan, then they would obviously seek to unmake him somehow. They might believe that if people stopped believing in Talos/Lorkhan that he would simply cease to exist and through his death bring the world back into that formless, timeless state it was in prior to Nirn's creation. Thoughts?
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Post by ConsumingFire on Jan 16, 2016 14:38:57 GMT -8
So I just finished reading C0DA for the first time today, and I have to say it was… different. It answers some lore-related questions through nauseatingly cryptic language, but it also raises other questions: What is C0DA, exactly? What is its purpose? Who was Memory? Does Secunda have a population living within it like Masser does? How is Almalexia still alive after the events of Tribunal? I thought she had lost her divine powers after the Heart of Lorkhan was destroyed. What did Lorkhan’s ‘heart-hole’ being filled again do to him? Why did Jubal marry Vivec at the end? Questions aside, the setting of the story really intrigued me, what with it being set in a post-apocalyptic 5th Era, the various gods still battling the Numidium on the moon, and the shattered remnants of what had once been Nirn with the Wheels of Lull exposed. Some of the concepts struck me as funny like having Yagrum Bagarn as ‘The Intellective’ being in control of a bunch of TV-headed aliens, Pseudo-6th-House being a superhero team fighting against him, and the dreamsleeves being something akin to a magical Internet. I’m also pretty certain that Jubal-Lun-Sul became an Amaranth by the end of the story (or at the very least achieved CHIM, which is a step in that direction). C0DA as a whole was interesting to read but I don’t think that it should be treated as canonical (and I’m not here to debate on that). Granted, it was a plenty more original than the plethora of fantasy stereotypes being regurgitated by Bethesda nowadays, but Kirkbride’s out-of-game material is usually viewed as ‘ambiguously canon’ by Bethesda who claim that the canonicity of his material “depends”. Until they add some of it in that is like with ESO. All in all, a good story with some neat lore implications if ever made official. The Loveletter adds even more to it.
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Post by Gabrielman on Jan 16, 2016 18:02:37 GMT -8
I really need to get back into this... just been so busy with life and the channel... but with our TES VI discussions videos, this might come in handy... uh... not c0da, but lore in general!
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Post by ConsumingFire on Jan 16, 2016 21:48:30 GMT -8
I really need to get back into this... just been so busy with life and the channel... but with our TES VI discussions videos, this might come in handy... uh... not c0da, but lore in general! Yeah we really should at some point although I'm actually glad you're busy because that means the channel is growing in popularity and that stuff is happening in your life (hopefully good stuff). I just thought of this a couple of days ago but if a war between the (now weakened) Mede Empire and the Third Aldmeri Dominion takes place in the next game, that would provide the perfect excuse for Tosh Raka to invade Tamriel from the east (Black Marsh & Morrowind, I'm looking at you ) right under their noses and having only the Argonians/An-Xileel to deal with since Morrowind has become pretty insignificant following the Oblivion Crisis/Red Year/Argonian takeover of southern Morrowind. There should be no reason for a prospective Elder Scrolls VI to not take place in Black Marsh for precisely this reason. New location... new scenery... new enemies... this needs to happen (that and bringing back some old Morrowind gameplay mechanics).
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Post by ConsumingFire on Feb 1, 2016 18:55:18 GMT -8
Hmm...
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Post by Gabrielman on Feb 2, 2016 12:32:57 GMT -8
Hmm... Ya know, this is slightly off topic, but seeing this makes me think of all the books in game... they are a few pages long, maybe 20, and yet they're thick, and heavy... how exactly does that work? Are there just a bunch of blank pages in the books after that, or are the pages just really thick? If so, why?
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